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26-04-2012, 12:24 AM | Message : #41
Corparative
I'm going to bite the bait like a fish.

Knifing should be made effective in high level games. It's not okay to just sit back and doom an entire half of the commando class to being second-class citizens. I bet people would sure be unhappy if we made machine-gun gunners ineffective! Yep kids, from now on, gunners can only shotgun in high level games, those who love laser guns, whoop-de-doo!

No, all other classes have their weapons work fine, and it is simply unacceptable that knifing should be the one to get the cold shoulder.

I actually think EA agrees with me, because the release of the uber knife was a big step in the right direction - more damage, quicker recharge time on stabs.

Now, however, EA has another problem to tackle - how to make commandos viable in a team setting against leg-it and blasting strike. Because in high level rooms, people simply dont walk around by themselves, waiting to get knifed. They walk in groups.

Plus, enemy mandos bring you out of stealth, which, as a knifer, means you gotta hit elixer and just wait to restealth in some remote location. Not very fun indeed.
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26-04-2012, 12:24 AM | Message : #42
22ezarc 
saggy jugs

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26-04-2012, 12:25 AM | Message : #43
AverageDaniel 
(26-04-2012 12:24 AM)22ezarc a écrit :  saggy jugs

jaggy sugs

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26-04-2012, 12:25 AM | Message : #44
CoBanyi 
(25-04-2012 08:28 PM)Corparative a écrit :  Exactly. Exactly. What frustrates me the most is that the commandos who occasionally try knifing, and post vids, etc, are high level and are knifing like Corporal I's and Lieutenants II's. Level 30 soldiers and gunners stay together, and have level 5 clapping strike and level 5 leg-it. I defy anyone to competitively knife in such an environment. The best you could hope for is to kamikadze in with level 5 poison blade and troop trap, and hope to get some post mortems.

Just my stupid tip.. When you're knifing a group of people just spam them with knife then 2 seconds later, make yourself face the nearest hill/mountain or any place where you can hide then jump! You'll get boost into the air to that location thanks to soldiers and their blasting strikes. So yeah once you landed, just run away and you're safe. I've knifed a lot and this is pretty effective.. and btw pb sux, use tt instead D:
(Ce message a été modifié le : 26-04-2012 12:26 AM par CoBanyi.)
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26-04-2012, 12:31 AM | Message : #45
WorldBosh 
(26-04-2012 12:24 AM)Corparative a écrit :  I'm going to bite the bait like a fish.

Knifing should be made effective in high level games. It's not okay to just sit back and doom an entire half of the commando class to being second-class citizens. I bet people would sure be unhappy if we made machine-gun gunners ineffective! Yep kids, from now on, gunners can only shotgun in high level games, those who love laser guns, whoop-de-doo!

No, all other classes have their weapons work fine, and it is simply unacceptable that knifing should be the one to get the cold shoulder.

I actually think EA agrees with me, because the release of the uber knife was a big step in the right direction - more damage, quicker recharge time on stabs.

Now, however, EA has another problem to tackle - how to make commandos viable in a team setting against leg-it and blasting strike. Because in high level rooms, people simply dont walk around by themselves, waiting to get knifed. They walk in groups.

Plus, enemy mandos bring you out of stealth, which, as a knifer, means you gotta hit elixer and just wait to restealth in some remote location. Not very fun indeed.

You still don't get it. Knives, like LRPs, are SUPPOSED to be secondary weapons. Trying to make an entire style of play based around a secondary weapon will only give you below average results. The reason why the commando class is pretty much split down the middle is because many commandos recognize that sniping is the commando's primary weapon and have chosen to maximize upon it, while forsaking a build that supports knifing and replacing their secondary knife with a secondary pistol. Commandos were never built for prolonged close quarters encounters, which is why many of the skills are based around either boosting damage or evading the enemy. The reason why PB is a DoT is because your target should already be nearly dead when they come close, allowing you to poison and flee without sustaining alot of damage.

Commandos cannot operate in team play because their function isn't to be involved in fire-fights, which is what both gunners and soldiers were built for, but to QUICKLY AND EFFICIENTLY remove key targets like enemy snipers, campers, the more skilled enemies on the other team.

(Ce message a été modifié le : 26-04-2012 12:34 AM par WorldBosh.)
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26-04-2012, 12:37 AM | Message : #46
Corparative
Knives are secondary weapons? Oh yeah? Oh yeah?

Then why does poison blade exist? HMHMMMM? What do soldiers get for their secondary weapons? ICY BULLETS? HMM?

What do gunners get for THEIR secondary weapons? EH? WOTS THAT ME CHAP? NUTTIN'?









Yeah knives arnt secondary weapons. Sniper rifles and pistols are secondary weapons.





And the reason PB is a dot is because hindsight is always 20/20, and the developer responsible for poison blade was probably human and couldnt anticipate that his ideas would turn out to be underwhelming for the commando.
(Ce message a été modifié le : 26-04-2012 12:40 AM par Corparative.)
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26-04-2012, 12:47 AM | Message : #47
WorldBosh 
(26-04-2012 12:37 AM)Corparative a écrit :  Knives are secondary weapons? Oh yeah? Oh yeah?

Then why does poison blade exist? HMHMMMM? What do soldiers get for their secondary weapons? ICY BULLETS? HMM?

What do gunners get for THEIR secondary weapons? EH? WOTS THAT ME CHAP? NUTTIN'?









Yeah knives arnt secondary weapons. Sniper rifles and pistols are secondary weapons.

LMFAO. Dude, go face the corner and think about what you just said. How in the living hell are snipers secondary weapons? Classes only get skills for class specific weapons. Just because they have skills for the weapon doesn't make it a primary. Commandos are the flimsiest class and cannot operate in CQC situations, which is why knifing isn't a viable option after 20, when both gunners and soldiers start to improve drastically.

Gunners have FF because the MG is their only class specific weapon, but the MG is also a primary because its the weapon that allows them to accomplish their roles effectively.

Soldiers have BB because the SMG is their only class specific weapon, but soldiers do not charge around with the SMG because gunners would eat them in close range, so they exercise caution and tactics (well some do at least) when dealing with gunners.

Commandos get PS and PB because knives and snipers are their primary weapon. The reason snipers are the primary commando weapon is because it allows commandos to accomplish their role, which is to dispatch key targets effectively. The knife is a panic weapon for when a target gets too close for sniping to be effective, so basically hit your target with PB and RUN LIKE HELL. You don't dance around or try to stealth towards them with PB because its too loud and does damage over time. To say that CM cures the poison is correct, but then the soldier would have their survivability cut in half (more or less) unless they widget spam, which leaves them ripe for sniping.

Oh and if you wanna be taken seriously in a discussion, try not to rage.

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26-04-2012, 01:18 AM | Message : #48
Corparative
If you're going to try to sound serious, at least try to make logical arguments.

Soldiers dont get abilities for secondary weapons because buhh buuhhh buhhh
Gunners dont get abilities for secondary weapons beacuse buhhh buhhh
But knives must be secondary weapons because, during the current patch, higher level commandos prefer snipers, because the devs messed knife up, so that makes the sniper rifle the main weapons.

No. Just no. Just like you can make the opinion statement that knives are secondary, because you like rifles, I'm going to go ahead and say knives are primary weapons, and the devs just made piercing shots slightly OP.

So now that we have figured out that these arguments dont get us anywhere, I think we can all agree that poison blade needs some sort of buff, and, a personal recommendation, if I were in charge of things for BFH, I'd start thinking on a new ability for knifers, to solve the problem of blasting strike and leg it.

Or just make poison blade have a secondary effect. Say, if you activate it while in melee range, you just do some extra damage on your stab. If you activate it out of melee range, it pulls you towards your target, or slows your target, or pulls your target towards you, something like that.
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26-04-2012, 01:30 AM | Message : #49
orpheus###### 
At high levels most mandos then realise that knifing is not so effective so they then go on to use snipers and pistols as their mains, which is more productive than dying in a shitstorm trying to knife opponents. Hence Knifes are their secondary weps at higher levels.

Similarily with the soldier any good soldier will use their lr pistol as their primary weapon. There by they get BB for their secondary weapon. But thats primarily up to you.

Nobody likes knifers anyway and there is no real reason to buff it as the uber/super knifes are powerful enough to kill easily if timed correctly.

Basically Knifers will never get buffed at the moment because there are much more bigger balance issues than this.

**** this game, that is all.
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26-04-2012, 01:59 AM | Message : #50
The_WUUSTER 
Rather than a slow effect for PB, I'm more for a vampiric effect. Make PB absorb a % of health, so that ways commandos also have some sort of healing (which other classes have, gunners with FF and soldiers with CM). Also makes PB a lot more attractive, rather than just some stupid ability that only does 45 DoT (although IMO PB is great for trolling gunners) and makes a loud-ass noise.

Btw, since when was a knife ever a primary weapon? Take a look at all the other shooting games; knives are always the "back-up" weapon (actually, more of the last-resort weapon).

[Image: wuuster.png]
(23-12-2012 06:57 AM)TPangolin a écrit :  I've always enjoyed reading your posts.
(Ce message a été modifié le : 26-04-2012 01:59 AM par The_WUUSTER.)
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26-04-2012, 02:31 AM | Message : #51
Corparative
(26-04-2012 01:59 AM)The_WUUSTER a écrit :  Rather than a slow effect for PB, I'm more for a vampiric effect. Make PB absorb a % of health, so that ways commandos also have some sort of healing (which other classes have, gunners with FF and soldiers with CM). Also makes PB a lot more attractive, rather than just some stupid ability that only does 45 DoT (although IMO PB is great for trolling gunners) and makes a loud-ass noise.

Btw, since when was a knife ever a primary weapon? Take a look at all the other shooting games; knives are always the "back-up" weapon (actually, more of the last-resort weapon).

You can't really compare BFH to other "shooting" games, because its in a slightly different genre. I'd say this game was closer to something Like Rakion, or even Global Agenda, than shooters, pretty much because in shooters, killing someone is a matter of seconds. Even so...

Rakion: the ninja was daggers, and the warrior was a sword. Smith had a hammer.
Assassin's creed, knives are primary.
Team Fortress 2 for spies, knives are primary.
Warhammer Wrath of heroes: has assassin/rogue types with daggers.


I like the vampirism idea, the problem is, it doesnt solve the problem of being (un)able to stay on targets. Right now, legit makes gunners go as fast as your elixer - and while you cannot knife them while they are 1.5 feet away, they sure as hell can shoot you. Same goes for blasting strike. Anticipation of where the gunner will head with legit, in order to move in the same direction with elixir, is based entirely on chance and, if you're lucky, then further relies on reaction times hundreds of orders of magnitude greater than what gunners or soldiers have to display in this game.
(Ce message a été modifié le : 26-04-2012 02:33 AM par Corparative.)
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26-04-2012, 02:35 AM | Message : #52
Corparative
(26-04-2012 01:30 AM)orpheus###### a écrit :  At high levels most mandos then realise that knifing is not so effective so they then go on to use snipers and pistols as their mains, which is more productive than dying in a shitstorm trying to knife opponents. Hence Knifes are their secondary weps at higher levels.

Similarily with the soldier any good soldier will use their lr pistol as their primary weapon. There by they get BB for their secondary weapon. But thats primarily up to you.

Nobody likes knifers anyway and there is no real reason to buff it as the uber/super knifes are powerful enough to kill easily if timed correctly.

Basically Knifers will never get buffed at the moment because there are much more bigger balance issues than this.



Soldiers get burning bullets for their submachine guns. Which are now secondary? Really? Really. Really. Then they get no abilities for their supposed primary weapons. Um. Fail.


The fact that at higher levels snipers are currently better than knives doesnt mean snipers are the primary weapon. It means knives need a buff.

I like knives.

What other super-great imbalance issues are there in this game? There's only 3 classes, and you discarded one of them. So whats uber imbalanced between soldiers and gunners?
(Ce message a été modifié le : 26-04-2012 02:37 AM par Corparative.)
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26-04-2012, 02:57 AM | Message : #53
stupiditytries 
There's no way that knives need a buff. No way. You can do ~70 dmg with a clean stab, how should that be buffed? It's difficult knifing - I know. But that's only half a commando's set up. Sniping is much more efficient, especially in higher levels.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about universe."
-Albert Einstein
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26-04-2012, 03:18 AM | Message : #54
The_WUUSTER 
(26-04-2012 02:35 AM)Corparative a écrit :  
(26-04-2012 01:30 AM)orpheus###### a écrit :  At high levels most mandos then realise that knifing is not so effective so they then go on to use snipers and pistols as their mains, which is more productive than dying in a shitstorm trying to knife opponents. Hence Knifes are their secondary weps at higher levels.

Similarily with the soldier any good soldier will use their lr pistol as their primary weapon. There by they get BB for their secondary weapon. But thats primarily up to you.

Nobody likes knifers anyway and there is no real reason to buff it as the uber/super knifes are powerful enough to kill easily if timed correctly.

Basically Knifers will never get buffed at the moment because there are much more bigger balance issues than this.



Soldiers get burning bullets for their submachine guns. Which are now secondary? Really? Really. Really. Then they get no abilities for their supposed primary weapons. Um. Fail.


The fact that at higher levels snipers are currently better than knives doesnt mean snipers are the primary weapon. It means knives need a buff.

I like knives.

What other super-great imbalance issues are there in this game? There's only 3 classes, and you discarded one of them. So whats uber imbalanced between soldiers and gunners?

The SMG's are meant to be a primary weapon, but every good soldier knows that if you're using your SMG at every range, you're doing it wrong. Just b/c some weapons have abilities associated with them doesn't mean they're "primary" weapons. Good soldiers mainly use their pistol, good gunners mainly use their RPG's, and most mandos use their pistols (even snipers; I personally never use my sniper rifle unless PS is ready).

Same goes with knife. If you run it just swinging your knife, you might get a lucky kill, but really all you're going to do is just set the entire group on you (and you'll most likely die). Pistol becomes the knifer's primary weapon, in the sense that the knifer has to use the pistol a lot more. When I knifed, I found myself spamming the pistol a lot, and only resorting to my knife as an opener/finisher.

As for PB, I would also propose making it a lot quieter. Makes it more assassination-related too.

[Image: wuuster.png]
(23-12-2012 06:57 AM)TPangolin a écrit :  I've always enjoyed reading your posts.
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26-04-2012, 03:44 AM | Message : #55
Corparative
Yeah, so, the idea is that the knife needs a buff to be able to be competitive with the sniper rifle. This would call for some perhaps rather extensive reworking of the commando abilities. But that would make this games better.

Or you could just make a fourth class altogether, dedicated to knifing. I would support that.

The problem with saying that the knife is some sort of accessory for a sniper is that snipers dont need knives...period. You just shoot people from across the map all day. And then elixer and run if someone gets close.

Choosing to knife is an entirely different path. One that needs a buff atm.
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26-04-2012, 03:47 AM | Message : #56
Drew 
When gunners get an effective LR buff, commandos' will get a SR buff.
The 2 classes are the perfect counter to each other, if one gained a buff in it's weaker range, the other will need a buff as well.

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26-04-2012, 03:48 AM | Message : #57
The_WUUSTER 
Balancing the knifer's extremely difficult.

First of all, the Super/Uber knife's incredibly powerful. So it's not the weapon that needs balancing. But how do you buff a knifer but at the same time prevent the same to the sniper (any buff to a knifer except for PB would help snipers as well, and snipers are already OP as is). I guess the only real option is to improve PB, the only knifer-exclusive ability.

Separating the classes? Good idea, but I don't think anybody's gonna bother with that.

[Image: wuuster.png]
(23-12-2012 06:57 AM)TPangolin a écrit :  I've always enjoyed reading your posts.
(Ce message a été modifié le : 26-04-2012 03:48 AM par The_WUUSTER.)
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26-04-2012, 05:56 AM | Message : #58
SweetName 
Just going to throw out...

knifing will always have one hardwired disadvantage over sniping.

A knifer has to walk CLose to their target in order to do knife damage...

A sniper can shoot from across the map.

So all that time a knifer spends walking? Is time a sniper can spend shooting.

Buffing knifes won't make knifers on par with snipers.... because knifers will still have to walk next to their target.

(Not to mention all the other disadvantages of having to be point blank with your target to be effective. Disadvantages that are heightened by also having the lowest health pool, and no ability to recover health yourself.)

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26-04-2012, 08:50 AM | Message : #59
orpheus###### 
(26-04-2012 02:35 AM)Corparative a écrit :  
(26-04-2012 01:30 AM)orpheus###### a écrit :  At high levels most mandos then realise that knifing is not so effective so they then go on to use snipers and pistols as their mains, which is more productive than dying in a shitstorm trying to knife opponents. Hence Knifes are their secondary weps at higher levels.

Similarily with the soldier any good soldier will use their lr pistol as their primary weapon. There by they get BB for their secondary weapon. But thats primarily up to you.

Nobody likes knifers anyway and there is no real reason to buff it as the uber/super knifes are powerful enough to kill easily if timed correctly.

Basically Knifers will never get buffed at the moment because there are much more bigger balance issues than this.

Soldiers get burning bullets for their submachine guns. Which are now secondary? Really? Really. Really. Then they get no abilities for their supposed primary weapons. Um. Fail. IF you read the above bold part you will understand what i mean mr smarty pants


The fact that at higher levels snipers are currently better than knives doesnt mean snipers are the primary weapon. It means knives need a buff. I don't think it's the actual knifes that need a buff but perhaps PB

I like knives.

What other super-great imbalance issues are there in this game? There's only 3 classes, and you discarded one of them. So whats uber imbalanced between soldiers and gunners? GUNNERS AND FF AND KEG and the soldier was just slightly adjusted recently

Basically it depends on what you (self decided) think is a primary or secondary weapon.

You can't assign priority based on abilities for weapons; other wise that would mean that mandos have two primary weapons (think about it). So its hardly a fail, more of a representation of what many (but not all) good soldiers do.
Not to mention lr pistols are much more effective than smgs at 70% of the ranges you will find your self at
I don't use snipers or knifes anymore because pistols are just to much entertainment compared to both, hence they are my primary weapons.

And knifing will NEVER be effective at high levels BS, KEG, NADE LAUNCHERS, ROCKET LAUNCHERS,sr MGs ensured this, even if you buffed PB its not going to make much difference in High level games (Tonics, teaming etc guarantee this) Although a buff like the connivers kunai on tf2 would be cool.

For that matter level your mando up to 30 without noob bashing and see how long it takes for you to see why it really never will be a viable option at high level games.

**** this game, that is all. (Ce message a été modifié le : 26-04-2012 09:22 AM par orpheus######.)
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26-04-2012, 09:00 AM | Message : #60
orpheus###### 
(26-04-2012 03:44 AM)Corparative a écrit :  Yeah, so, the idea is that the knife needs a buff to be able to be competitive with the sniper rifle. This would call for some perhaps rather extensive reworking of the commando abilities. But that would make this games better.

I'm not going to lie, but a significant portion of the community would get jarated off if knifers got buffed.

AnD in my opinion it would actually make the game worse.

**** this game, that is all.
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