Stop Trolling Knife Mandos

[AverageDaniel]

(26-04-2012 10:48 PM)Corparative Wrote:  Elixer allows you to catch up to people. (To knife them.)
Mark Target allows you to pull other commandos out of stealth, so you can walk over to them and knife them.
Troop Trap allows you to lay a trap near yourself, so if you lure someone trying to catch you, knifing them is easier cause some of their health is missing.
And poison blade, theoretically, adds damage to the knife, although atm is broken.

What if I told you Elixir allowed you to run away from the battle once you've done your sniping, that MT allows you to pull commandos out of stealth so you can snipe them, or that troop traps are meant to protect you from whatever might attack you as you're pewpewing away from a distance?

With that kind of logic, I could easily argue that the commandos main weapon is the TNT.

(26-04-2012 10:48 PM)Corparative Wrote:  In any case, you should be able to effectively knife in this game, because its a solid 1/3 of the class choices.

Okay now, this is exactly where you're wrong. A miniscule amount of the players you'll face in a high level, skilled server (not to mention cw's, oh boy) will actually be using a knife.

When facing good opponents, it simply isn't viable 90% of the time. If you want me to, I'll pm you a couple of bookmarks for servers where you won't find knifing to be the commandos main weapon, or even a decent secondary.

(26-04-2012 02:31 AM)Corparative Wrote:  Right now, legit makes gunners go as fast as your elixer - and while you cannot knife them while they are 1.5 feet away, they sure as hell can shoot you.

And oh my god, I can't believe I almost missed out on this little gem. First of all, while leg-it and elixir gives the same speed boost, the commandos higher base speed WILL make him run faster than the gunner when both abilities are being used. And wtf? You can't knife someone who's 1.5 feet away from you, when the regular knife has a range of 2 meters? Not to mention the uber sword knife with a range of THREE?

You should also have a pistol to fall back upon anyway..

[Corparative]

(26-04-2012 11:20 PM)AverageDaniel Wrote:  What if I told you Elixir allowed you to run away from the battle once you've done your sniping, that MT allows you to pull commandos out of stealth so you can snipe them, or that troop traps are meant to protect you from whatever might attack you as you're pewpewing away from a distance?

With that kind of logic, I could easily argue that the commandos main weapon is the TNT.

Once you're done sniping? With the tnt? Once you're pewpewing away with a tnt? This was just some logic fail.

(26-04-2012 11:20 PM)AverageDaniel Wrote:  Okay now, this is exactly where you're wrong. A miniscule amount of the players you'll face in a high level, skilled server (not to mention cw's, oh boy) will actually be using a knife.

When facing good opponents, it simply isn't viable 90% of the time. If you want me to, I'll pm you a couple of bookmarks for servers where you won't find knifing to be the commandos main weapon, or even a decent secondary.

This is exactly why we are starting this thread. Poison blade, and knife commandos in general, are underpowered in the current patch. They need a big buff. Good job man, you're catching on...I think?

(26-04-2012 11:20 PM)AverageDaniel Wrote:  And oh my god, I can't believe I almost missed out on this little gem. First of all, while leg-it and elixir gives the same speed boost, the commandos higher base speed WILL make him run faster than the gunner when both abilities are being used. And wtf? You can't knife someone who's 1.5 feet away from you, when the regular knife has a range of 2 meters? Not to mention the uber sword knife with a range of THREE?

You should also have a pistol to fall back upon anyway..

Yeah, I dont run with anything ranged, I have a knife and sword. Not interested in shooting people. Also, I dont know if you've ever tried knifing someone with their legit up, especially a gunner, by the time you close the gap that opens, whatever it is, you're long dead because gunner guns kill stuff pretty quick at close range. So yeah. Just try it you, you'll see why its not a viable kill strategy.

[22ezarc]

[AverageDaniel]

^ This means I am right

& You run with Sword & Knife, and you expect to do good? The game is SUPPOSED to punish you for not so good like that, dude.

(26-04-2012 11:38 PM)Corparative Wrote:  

(26-04-2012 11:20 PM)AverageDaniel Wrote:  What if I told you Elixir allowed you to run away from the battle once you've done your sniping, that MT allows you to pull commandos out of stealth so you can snipe them, or that troop traps are meant to protect you from whatever might attack you as you're pewpewing away from a distance?

With that kind of logic, I could easily argue that the commandos main weapon is the TNT.

Once you're done sniping? With the tnt? Once you're pewpewing away with a tnt? This was just some logic fail.

Impeccable reading comprehension right there son

[Corparative]

Mmmm I think what you're doing atm is called, in the trade, "overplaying your hand."

I'd be interested what slim thinks, besides pictures. Another knifer who, ironically, doesnt have poison blade.

[22ezarc]

Knifer is not the right term. It's more like....

Gunslingerwithonlyonegunbutalsohasaknifethatcanbeusedatsomerighttimesbutothertha​nthatdon'tbepatientandwaitforyourkillslikemostknifersbecauseyou'renothelpingyour​selforyourteammatesinthatmatterandyou'djustbeemptyspacesooumustbelongrangesuppor​tfirenstufflikethat.

[epicchickengod]

Corparative, Have you been in a high level server?

[Lothalis]

Let's look at something here, he plays using a knife and a sword and believes that their shouldn't be a need to use a ranged weapon at all. He has mentioned MMORPG's in a prior post, I think I see the problem.

Corparative please read this: This is not a massively multiplayer online role playing game, it is a first person shooter. Yes their are knives for commando, but melee is not the primary focus of this style of game. If you are expecting a FPS to cater to your desires and make a Melee class then petition that, I would even go along and support that because I think that would be cool; but don't go and say because it has knives as a weapon choice commando HAS to cater to that play style and anyone who disagrees is wrong. Again I will state I see your point about PB, it is an issue I think that should be corrected and if it was I may take ranks in it.

(26-04-2012 11:38 PM)Corparative Wrote:  Yeah, I dont run with anything ranged, I have a knife and sword. Not interested in shooting people. Also, I dont know if you've ever tried knifing someone with their legit up, especially a gunner, by the time you close the gap that opens, whatever it is, you're long dead because gunner guns kill stuff pretty quick at close range. So yeah. Just try it you, you'll see why its not a viable kill strategy.

You said it best right there: "you'll see why its not a viable kill strategy." you know that what you are doing is a bad strategy but you are continuing to use it and expect EA to cater to your desires as if they somehow "owe" it to you. The only thing EA owes to it's players is to fix bugs and ensure game balance. By pumping up melee for commandos they also pump up the snipers abilities thus making commandos overpowered, they look at the classes as a whole product, they do NOT care if you only play one part of it and ignore the rest. That's your problem if you choose this path of only playing melee in a shooter game.

Stop the whining, realize that playing a knifer (especially without a ranged back up) will be a hard route to take because this is a FPS, which stands for First Person Shooter not First Person Stabber.

[SweetName]

(26-04-2012 06:35 PM)Corparative Wrote:  The knife is a playstyle that commandos can choose to use. As such, it should, just like any other playstyle within any other class, have the potential to top the damage chart in competitive, end-game rooms.

(26-04-2012 08:11 PM)Corparative Wrote:  Yeah here's the deal, all play styles need to be made equal.

See, here is a BIG flaw in your argument...

Because what you're saying? Doesn't jive with ANY of the other classes.

Soldiers only have ONE build which allows them to be competitive at high end play. (Sr-SMG+LR pistol)

Gunners have TWO builds which allow them to be competitive at high end play. (SR-MG + Assault SG/Lr-MG)

Commandos have TWO builds which allow them to be competitive at high end play. (LR-pistol + Fast/Slow rifle.)



-------------------------------------------------------------------
IF a soldier goes into a high end room armed with 2x SR-pistols... guess how well he does?
Gunners rocking Mr-SG + LR-SG... do they top the boards? Do they even come close?
A gunner who wants to focus on long range combat... do they perform nearly as well as a gunner focused on short range?
A Soldier who stacks short range guns... Perform as well as a soldier who goes short+long? (or simply focuses on the midrange?_

NO. In ALL of the above cases, the player has made a poor choice, and their gameplay results will reflect this.

There are PLENTY of play styles in BFH which perform significantly worse than the standard build.

EVERYONE playing any other class has to make the decision on whether they want to use the "cookie cutter" performance build... or try out a different build based on their personal preferences.

Knifing isn't special. Commandos aren't special.
It's just another OPTIONAL way to play a class.

Knife + Pistol works fine at high levels. Just not as well as rifle+pistol.

It could use tweaks... /shrug.

But, if a person decideds to use a gimped build... despite there being other, more viable builds available... then that person should just suck it up and deal with the consequences for their decision, rather than try and get the game changed to suit their personal needs.

[Corparative]

O0o0o0 A gunner up in arms, color me surprised.

Commando has choice of two builds, sniper or knife. Your little assessment of the long range pistol being a build is simply incorrect, because while knife has an ability dedicated to it, long range pistol does not. That makes knife the primary build.

Yeah, there goes your little tirade out the window.

Bump for knife mandos needing a buff!

--------quick edit---

Just because you decided at some unspecified point in the past that this game should only have competitive range weapons, not all of us are in that boat. In fact, EA isnt in that boat. So yeah. Stop trying to foister your beliefs on me bro.

[SweetName]

(27-04-2012 04:30 AM)Corparative Wrote:  O0o0o0 A gunner up in arms, color me surprised.

Commando has choice of two builds, sniper or knife. Your little assessment of the long range pistol being a build is simply incorrect, because while knife has an ability dedicated to it, long range pistol does not. That makes knife the primary build.

Yeah, there goes your little tirade out the window.

Bump for knife mandos needing a buff!

--------quick edit---

Just because you decided at some unspecified point in the past that this game should only have competitive range weapons, not all of us are in that boat. In fact, EA isnt in that boat. So yeah. Stop trying to foister your beliefs on me bro.

Response:
Gunner in sig != gunner in game play. So keep your logical fallacies to yourself.

2nd Didn't say long range pistol was a build. (It IS a build, I wrote a guide on it even, but i didn't say it here.)

3rd. There is a CHOICE between a lot more than two builds.
TWO builds that are perfectly viable. (or one build if you want to label a sniper as such.)

So... how many builds would you say a gunner has then?
What about a soldier?

(27-04-2012 04:30 AM)Corparative Wrote:  Just because you decided at some unspecified point in the past that this game should only have competitive range weapons, not all of us are in that boat. In fact, EA isnt in that boat. So yeah.

Oddly enough....

You seem to have decided that melee only should be competitive, not all of us are in that boat. In fact, EA isn't in that boat.... so....

(27-04-2012 04:30 AM)Corparative Wrote:  Stop trying to foister your beliefs on me bro.

[orpheus######]

(26-04-2012 01:26 PM)Corparative Wrote:  

(26-04-2012 09:30 AM)orpheus###### Wrote:  

(26-04-2012 12:24 AM)Corparative Wrote:  Now, however, EA has another problem to tackle - how to make commandos viable in a team setting against leg-it and blasting strike. Because in high level rooms, people simply dont walk around by themselves, waiting to get knifed. They walk in groups.

Sniping, mark target, flag capping dual lr pistols are about the closest a mando can get to team oriented. But this does make them viable against teams.
I believe what you are trying to say is that you want to make KNIFERS useful against these things, which is seemingly unrealistic given the nature of the weapon.

If you are looking for a way for knifing mandos to be useful against groups you should probably get a grip on reality.

What? Are you insane? This is like...this is like....

What if George Washington told Adams and Co., when told he had to win a war against Great britain, what if he said to "get realistic"? What if Neil Armstrong, when told he was going to set foot on the moon, replied "Get realistic"??? What if Eminem, when told he should start rapping because he's good at it, replied "Get a grip on reality?!?!@?!?!"

Great things happen because men who have balls to make them happen make them happen. To quote some Mad-Eye Moody, I'm not keeping anyone here. Anyone who prefers the path of the slave is welcome to leave.

Knifers can and should be made viable. The possibility to write that program code to make that happen exist. You may not have enough backbone to believe in a change, but I do.

And I will keep urging EA to do this until I get a clear and definitive "we're working on it" from them.


------

As to the people saying a significant portion of the population will be pissed if knifers become viable, well, the same argument was used to keep schools segregated. And some rednecks still dont like that fact today, yet somehow we've recognized that that was the right thing to do.

I am a portion of the community that's furious that gunners have all the tools that they do (including a slow effect on keg!).
And this is me expressing my point of view.

And yet none of that logic applies to bfh.

No improvement to the mando you could possibly make could make it more effective in the endgame, and i suggest you level up and see why. The only way it could be made more effective is by nerfing the other classes, which frankly is never gonna happen enough for this improvement on knifing to occur.

But the close range nature of this weapon will mean that the other classes will always destroy you if you get it wrong.

(27-04-2012 04:30 AM)Corparative Wrote:  O0o0o0 A gunner up in arms, color me surprised.

Commando has choice of two builds, sniper or knife. Your little assessment of the long range pistol being a build is simply incorrect, because while knife has an ability dedicated to it, long range pistol does not. That makes knife the primary build.

Yeah, there goes your little tirade out the window.

Bump for knife mandos needing a buff!

--------quick edit---

Just because you decided at some unspecified point in the past that this game should only have competitive range weapons, not all of us are in that boat. In fact, EA isnt in that boat. So yeah. Stop trying to foister your beliefs on me bro.

How about if you don't use a knife and onyl use two long range pistols, i think that in that case a knife is not your primary weapon. ( Yes i do use 2 lr pistols) you perhaps you might like to rethink what you just said.

[orpheus######]

I repeat my self again, you cannot assign priority to a weapon ( primary secondary etc) based apon abilities other wise in that case mandos would have 2 primary weapons.
Not to mention this is bfh it doesn't matter which is your primary weapons as they can all kill

[orpheus######]

.....

[Lothalis]

(27-04-2012 05:12 AM)orpheus###### Wrote:  .....

This is exactly how I feel...

Get over it, this game was not designed to cater to melee, if you don't like it, don't play it, but whining on the forums about how you choose to play a game where people run around with machine guns and explosives and your knife/katana combo somehow doesn't work ((as well as it used to when the soldiers and gunners had less skills at their disposal) will not change anything. This is the way is it going to be because it is a SHOOTER GAME, no one cares if you don't see it as a shooter game, it is one. If I look at a banana and insist that I see it as an apple, it will not change others views that I am eating a banana.

I don't want to hear your rhetoric about "it has a skill, therefore it's a viable option as a primary" because if that were the case then you disregard the PS for the commando entirely, you need to change either your play style and act in a supporting role to take out enemy snipers, lone stragglers going to the fight and capping flags strategically and leave your teams hoard of gunners and soldiers to fight the enemies hoard; OR you need to change your views on how you see the game (apparently this is a spin off of World of Warcraft) and change your weapon selection. I don't know what the big deal is, I have seen your stats, you have kills with sniper rifles and were quite good with it.

[WorldBosh]

When he started arguing with Sweet, we all should've just shut up because hes beyond reasoning .

He wants knives to be as effective in SR as the SR MG is for gunners. He won't rest until he gets this and if he doesn't theres OBVIOUSLY something wrong with us for not supporting him.

[AAnnoo]

(27-04-2012 12:35 AM)22ezarc Wrote:  Knifer is not the right term. It's more like....

Gunslingerwithonlyonegunbutalsohasaknifethatcanbeusedatsomerighttimesbutothertha​nthatdon'tbepatientandwaitforyourkillslikemostknifersbecauseyou'renothelpingyour​selforyourteammatesinthatmatterandyou'djustbeemptyspacesooumustbelongrangesuppor​tfirenstufflikethat.

Exactly this.

[Corparative]

(27-04-2012 11:10 AM)Lothalis Wrote:  

(27-04-2012 05:12 AM)orpheus###### Wrote:  .....

This is exactly how I feel...

Get over it, this game was not designed to cater to melee, if you don't like it, don't play it, but whining on the forums about how you choose to play a game where people run around with machine guns and explosives and your knife/katana combo somehow doesn't work ((as well as it used to when the soldiers and gunners had less skills at their disposal) will not change anything. This is the way is it going to be because it is a SHOOTER GAME, no one cares if you don't see it as a shooter game, it is one. If I look at a banana and insist that I see it as an apple, it will not change others views that I am eating a banana.

I don't want to hear your rhetoric about "it has a skill, therefore it's a viable option as a primary" because if that were the case then you disregard the PS for the commando entirely, you need to change either your play style and act in a supporting role to take out enemy snipers, lone stragglers going to the fight and capping flags strategically and leave your teams hoard of gunners and soldiers to fight the enemies hoard; OR you need to change your views on how you see the game (apparently this is a spin off of World of Warcraft) and change your weapon selection. I don't know what the big deal is, I have seen your stats, you have kills with sniper rifles and were quite good with it.

Were you a game designer? I seriously doubt that. Because if you werent, then you have no idea what this game was designed to cater to.

I can think of several improvements to knifers off the bat that would make them viable endgame.
1) A smokebomb that would prevent anyone from targetting you who isnt inside.
2) A slow to keep your target in place.
3) A reverse knockback to pull people towards you from a group.
4) A buff to poison blade outright, to make the dot an instant hit on application.
5) Some sort of re-stealth thats better than the one right now - people cant see you up close for a short period of time, people cant damage you for that period of time also.


BFH is not like other shooter games. In other games, like Combat Arms, killing someone takes half a clip, maybe half a second or even less. Thats definitely not the bfh genre. Bfh is more like Newerth, or Team Fortress, both games that have melee.

Once again, I point to the fact that the designers gave knife commandos their own ability, which was not given to pistol commandos. So knifers are a viable alternative play strategy.

[AverageDaniel]

What's next up then?
Are you gonna tell us that knifers are viable simply because the commando symbol is a knife?

[s0zage]

(26-04-2012 10:56 PM)Lothalis Wrote:  You are not being forced to play a knifer in the commando class; you can play with a sniper rifle, pistol, and can use the grenade launcher. Again I will say if you were forced to ONLY choose one weapon then yes I would agree that the knifing commando is underpowered when compared to the other classes,

But if you can't knife aren't you forced to use pistols or snipers?