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28-03-2011, 05:51 PM | Post: #21
MadBernieSkills 
(28-03-2011 03:33 PM)Nyetek Wrote:  What is more significant, in my view, is that a sniper, with 5PS and either slow rifle or fast rifle, can kill you consistently (unlike BS etc) around a second at just about any distance - so fast that a soldier doesnt even have time to activate combat medicine (usually, with a good sniper, you have time to press it, but you die before it activates).

You're a good player, consider your own characters. OK, for you, the KDR/ELO of your mando is comparable to your soldier and your gunner. But you mainly use knife and pistol on your mando. You've only used the slow rifle for 6 hours - and yet you have a weapon-specific KDR of over 10 with it, much better than any other weapon on any of your characters. Is it much of a stretch to suggest that if you actually used the rifle as much as you do the pistol, that the KDR and ELO of your mando would improve above and beyond your other characters?

Same with me: I am a decent soldier and an awful sniper, yet my weapon-specific KDR with the slow rifle is higher than any other weapon, soldier or otherwise. Usually I miss with the damn thing, but when I hit the two/three headshots in a row it doesnt matter how good the other player is, they simply dont have time to respond. Personally I find sniping to be boring, but Im convinced that if I played my sniper as much as I did my soldier, he would have a better KDR than the soldier.

Your statistics say that mandos are weak scorers and winners, and average with everything else. But I am suggesting that the stats dont capture mandos' (snipers) killing potential because most people dont achieve that potential. It takes a lot of time to master sniping, and most casual players probably dont even find it fun enough to put in that much effort. If you could limit the sample size to level 30 snipers, or snipers who have played for +200 hours, I think you'd find that they have a higher average KDR and ELO than level 30/+200h soldiers, gunners and knifers.

To sum up: I couldnt actually care less if mandos got a score buff or not, but I think you underestimate the advantages they already have in other areas.

You are correct that level 30 commandos have a better KDR on average than the level 30 gunners and soldiers. Their ELO is smack in the middle of the 3 though. My argument is not on those stats though. Commandos are balance in every area except the 2 I mentioned. The time played for level 30 commandos is significantly higher than the other two (~19k minutes to ~15.3k minutes)

As far as me personally, I don't think you can look at specific KDRs per weapon. Many people lead with one weapon and finish with another. For example, if I lead with a knife and end with a pistol. Presumably I would either get the kill with the knife or not. If not, it's because the enemy is too far away. So I pull out the pistol as a last defense. So my deaths with the knife are lower than they should be since I pulled out the pistol at the end. This is just an example, but you get the idea. You can not look at weapon specific KDR. I used that rifle at low levels when the targets were much more stationary. I found that I did much worse as a higher level player, which is when I switched to the pistol. So my stats are misleading in that way.
I also don't put much stock into ELO. It gives you a general idea only. I usually hover between 1280 and 1420. That is a big range. One bad match can drop you 100 points. I see what you are saying. Commandos have strengths over the others. That is true. But it is also true that they are worse at helping their team win. What is better, to go 5-1 in a match or 10-3. One is a better KDR, but the other helps your team more. I say it is 10-3.
Plus, like you said, it is boring to sit up on a hill and snipe. Ugh.
If all you care about is KDR and ELO, then the commando can be the best. If you want anything else, the commando is most likely the worst.

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28-03-2011, 06:42 PM | Post: #22
JohnnyEnglish 
(28-03-2011 03:33 PM)Nyetek Wrote:  To sum up: I couldn't actually care less if commandos got a score buff or not, but I think you underestimate the advantages they already have in other areas.

This. It wasn't created to be at the top of the score charts and while I'm impressed with the website you created, Nye was right, most people don't play their commandos to full potential. Those that do, and there are few in my opinion, and come close to this are incredible at what they do.

Ergo, just because they weren't designed to be high scorers doesn't mean they can't be.

Before I forget, the rocket/keg kill thing is also a tradeoff. Not everybody pairs their rocket with keg and not everyone uses blasting strike. My national soldier I leveled to 30 completely without it. Ergo I am correct, its a tradeoff for all classes, which is how I believe it was intended.

Why are all these people missing when I said GEOGRAPHICAL ODDITIES. Like walls, signposts and tunnels. Sure you can one hit kill anything within them, that's a chance encounter not a predictable occurrence and the same whenever BS or KZKA is used.

ELO is broken. Probably irredeemably.

In short, the class doesn't need to be fixed the players playing it aren't doing it their full potential.
There are no weak classes only weak players.

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28-03-2011, 06:52 PM | Post: #23
MadBernieSkills 
(28-03-2011 06:42 PM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  In short, the class doesn't need to be fixed the players playing it aren't doing it their full potential.
There are no weak classes only weak players.

Most people don't play any class to their potential. The other classes are not penalized as much.

If you didn't use BS all the way to 30, then you certainly didn't play the soldier to it's fullest potential.

Even superskilled players like Nulled.Shot do worse on their commandos in terms of score/time and WLR. He is as far away from a weak player as possible.

The path to perfection is too narrow for the class.
I'm sorry that I can't be swayed and I'm being pig-headed. I want a blue to post to my topic. They keep ignoring it. It has over 7,000 views and no post from a blue. I want a blue to tell me why I'm wrong.

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28-03-2011, 07:00 PM | Post: #24
DorianGray 
I think anyone can agree to a small buff for knifers/pistolers, but again...
Suck if you think snipers are underpowered, they don't need a buff to any degree.

Would be nice to have it so if you have a knife/short pistol/uzi or maybe a mid pistol in your hands that you wouldn't be effected by kegs slow. That way snipers using the generic sniper + long pistol could still be caught by kegs, while knifers/short pistolers can't be countered with a mere keg throw to the gunners feet.

Again though, I can only see small buffs/nerfs (nerfing the slow on keg like I said and something with blasting strike...things that effect the close range commando) that only effect close range commandos or just making flags cap faster. I don't want to see any large buffs at all that make the already great builds greater.

Honestly as a pistol commando I'd be happy with just a buff that makes me cap flags faster so I actually get rewarded for sneaking around capping flags behind enemy lines risking my neck.
(This post was last modified: 28-03-2011 07:15 PM by DorianGray.)
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28-03-2011, 07:04 PM | Post: #25
JohnnyEnglish 
(28-03-2011 06:52 PM)MadBernieSkills Wrote:  I'm sorry that I can't be swayed and I'm being pig-headed.

You? Never would have guessed.Angel

We've now had one of the best knifers I know, Slim, one of the better pistol mandos I know, Dorian, two bronze snipers(agent certified), and Stupidus give this topic approval. People who know what they're doing. I'm not saying you don't, but look at it from a bigger perspective.

The blues probably won't do anything. That's reality.

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28-03-2011, 07:47 PM | Post: #26
grumphie 
(28-03-2011 07:04 PM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  
(28-03-2011 06:52 PM)MadBernieSkills Wrote:  I'm sorry that I can't be swayed and I'm being pig-headed.

You? Never would have guessed.Angel

We've now had one of the best knifers I know, Slim, one of the better pistol mandos I know, Dorian, two bronze snipers(agent certified), and Stupidus give this topic approval. People who know what they're doing. I'm not saying you don't, but look at it from a bigger perspective.

The blues probably won't do anything. That's reality.

then ur completly wrong in your thinking.

that are good ones. ofc they dont need a buff. we are talking bout ALL mando's. not only bout the good ones. and for most, the class needs to be tweaked/buffed

(21-05-2011 06:14 PM)sumishot Wrote:  
(21-05-2011 06:12 PM)Adrenaline895 Wrote:  The japanese one -.-

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28-03-2011, 07:58 PM | Post: #27
NoisomeP 
Meh. I like the PB drain life as the only buff. Commandos are good enough as they are.

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28-03-2011, 08:24 PM | Post: #28
Apoplectic 
I also think they should get rid of the commando in range sound completely, makes it impossible to get within knifing range of any halfway competent player.

(28-03-2011 06:42 PM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  In short, the class doesn't need to be fixed the players playing it aren't doing it their full potential.
There are no weak classes only weak players.

And why does it seem that there are a hell of a lot more weak commandos than there are weak soldiers or gunners? Could it be that the parameters of the class itself are too restrictive for more than a few to succeed compared to the other classes? I get where you are coming from, but it seems as though there are 10x more gunners and soldiers playing to full potential than there are commandos, despite the fact at least 1/3 of the players play as a commando. This to me says there is at least just as much of a problem with the class itself as there are with the players.

The commando in range sound makes it hard for a commando to compete in close range, the lack of a decent mid range weapon makes it incredibly hard for commandos to compete in mid range. All that leaves us with for consistent success is long range sniping, which with the exception of hacking and extreme skill is next to impossible to do profitably. The fact that we are the only class who's main ability can be countered by every single person on the field is BS. The class needs some tweaking.

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28-03-2011, 08:31 PM | Post: #29
JohnnyEnglish 
(28-03-2011 07:47 PM)grumphie Wrote:  then ur completly wrong in your thinking.

that are good ones. ofc they dont need a buff. we are talking bout ALL mando's. not only bout the good ones. and for most, the class needs to be tweaked/buffed

My logic is sound and backed up. Most people don't know how to play commando effectively. Its a people problem not a class problem.

(28-03-2011 08:24 PM)Apoplectic Wrote:  The fact that we are the only class who's main ability can be countered by every single person on the field is BS.

With the addition of widgets such as tonics, punch widget, and fireproof panties we can do just as much to counteract the main abilities of the other classes. I do appreciate your comment on a midrange weapon though. I think the LR pistol is probably the closest we're going to get since the MR pistol is awful.

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28-03-2011, 08:33 PM | Post: #30
MadBernieSkills 
(28-03-2011 07:04 PM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  
(28-03-2011 06:52 PM)MadBernieSkills Wrote:  I'm sorry that I can't be swayed and I'm being pig-headed.

You? Never would have guessed.Angel

We've now had one of the best knifers I know, Slim, one of the better pistol mandos I know, Dorian, two bronze snipers(agent certified), and Stupidus give this topic approval. People who know what they're doing. I'm not saying you don't, but look at it from a bigger perspective.

The blues probably won't do anything. That's reality.

I hate to break it to you, but all of the players you mentioned are better on their other classes.
You can go look at their pages if you want. I don't really want to cut and paste all this data into excel so I can make a pretty screenshot of it. In each case, their level 30 commandos score about 25% slower than their level 30 gunners and soldiers. The win a lot less with the commandos too.

This is true 99/100 times. It is true for experts, it is true for scrubs. Every once in awhile, someone actually does better with their commando. Usually it is that they are just not very good players with their other classes.

You see, a good player can pwn with a commando, so no problem, right? Well, then you look at their soldiers and gunners, and guess what? They pwn even more.
So yes, a good player can do very well with a commando. That isn't the issue. The issue is, on average, they do worse. And that is true no matter how good the person is, what level they are, how long they have been playing, or EVERY other factor you throw in there. I've looked at the statistics 30 ways from Sunday. It all says the exact same thing.

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28-03-2011, 08:44 PM | Post: #31
DorianGray 
Sniper > duel long > close range commando

Most people play close range commando because let's face it, it's a hell of a lot more fun and challenging so we love it. I go short/mid pistol and enjoy it even though I know I could do better overall with long/long combo or sniper + long. I do enjoy long/long, but it's not nearly as fun as pounding a gunners face in with the short/mid pistol combo.

Do I think they should consider nerfs to keg (removing slow for commandos holding a knife/short/mid pistol) and blasting strike (I considered blasting strike pretty ridiculous damage wise against any class) so close range commandos have a better chance? Yes. Do I think the commando class honestly needs any buffs? No. At most a flag capping buff and something to do with maybe buffing PB.

It's not the class thats failing, it's peoples weapons of choice. They pick fun over what works and they suffer from it. Don't get me wrong, I do well generally with short/mid pistol combo.. it's just the commando is so fragile that it just makes more sense to keep your distance with duel long pistols or sniping.

This is why soldiers try to stay in mid and gunners try to stay in short. It's where they are best at and they want to stay there because their weapons outside those ranges aren't as good (well, long range pistols pretty amazing at any range haha...still easily beat out by snipers though). I mean, you don't see gunners running around with duel long MG's.

Most people however don't snipe nearly as much as they knife, hence most people don't do that great on their commando. Look at my commando's stats and you'll see a huge difference between the stats on my weapons.
(This post was last modified: 28-03-2011 09:08 PM by DorianGray.)
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28-03-2011, 08:45 PM | Post: #32
grumphie 
(28-03-2011 08:31 PM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  
(28-03-2011 07:47 PM)grumphie Wrote:  then ur completly wrong in your thinking.

that are good ones. ofc they dont need a buff. we are talking bout ALL mando's. not only bout the good ones. and for most, the class needs to be tweaked/buffed

My logic is sound and backed up. Most people don't know how to play commando effectively. Its a people problem not a class problem.

well, if less then 50% is bad whit mando, i would say its a people problem. but MORE as 50% are weaker whit their mando. so its a class problem.you cant blame more as half the mandos for playing bad

(21-05-2011 06:14 PM)sumishot Wrote:  
(21-05-2011 06:12 PM)Adrenaline895 Wrote:  The japanese one -.-

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28-03-2011, 09:01 PM | Post: #33
JohnnyEnglish 
(28-03-2011 08:33 PM)MadBernieSkills Wrote:  
(28-03-2011 07:04 PM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  
(28-03-2011 06:52 PM)MadBernieSkills Wrote:  I'm sorry that I can't be swayed and I'm being pig-headed.

You? Never would have guessed.Angel

We've now had one of the best knifers I know, Slim, one of the better pistol mandos I know, Dorian, two bronze snipers(agent certified), and Stupidus give this topic approval. People who know what they're doing. I'm not saying you don't, but look at it from a bigger perspective.

The blues probably won't do anything. That's reality.

I hate to break it to you, but all of the players you mentioned are better on their other classes.
You can go look at their pages if you want. I don't really want to cut and paste all this data into excel so I can make a pretty screenshot of it. In each case, their level 30 commandos score about 25% slower than their level 30 gunners and soldiers. The win a lot less with the commandos too.

This is true 99/100 times. It is true for experts, it is true for scrubs. Every once in awhile, someone actually does better with their commando. Usually it is that they are just not very good players with their other classes.

You see, a good player can pwn with a commando, so no problem, right? Well, then you look at their soldiers and gunners, and guess what? They pwn even more.
So yes, a good player can do very well with a commando. That isn't the issue. The issue is, on average, they do worse. And that is true no matter how good the person is, what level they are, how long they have been playing, or EVERY other factor you throw in there. I've looked at the statistics 30 ways from Sunday. It all says the exact same thing.

Of all people you should be the first to realize that there is a difference between how a person looks statistically and how they actually play in game. If we went purely off of statistics day-day would be the best active player when you and I both know he's not.

Dorian's correct most people play for fun not for pure efficiency and there's nothing wrong with that, hence why I didn't use BS leveling to 30. I wanted a challenge. I'm saying that if people make the conscious effort, commando is easily on par with the other two.

Ergo, its a people problem or choice not a class problem.

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28-03-2011, 09:11 PM | Post: #34
Cpt.America
Commandos are so overpowered. They should be nerfed pretty hard imo!
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28-03-2011, 09:14 PM | Post: #35
Blackwyn 
Some people actually want buffs for the Commando? Wow...

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28-03-2011, 09:14 PM | Post: #36
C4veman 
(28-03-2011 09:11 PM)Cpt.America Wrote:  Commandos are so overpowered. They should be nerfed pretty hard imo!
thats a very constructive argument, mister.

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28-03-2011, 09:14 PM | Post: #37
Erreip199 
All Classes need changes

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28-03-2011, 09:17 PM | Post: #38
Solid Snail 
I want the commando class to be dismantled, put in a blender, blended and then reconstructed with the current experience of the commando class as it is today

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28-03-2011, 09:21 PM | Post: #39
MadBernieSkills 
(28-03-2011 09:01 PM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  Of all people you should be the first to realize that there is a difference between how a person looks statistically and how they actually play in game. If we went purely off of statistics day-day would be the best active player when you and I both know he's not.

Dorian's correct most people play for fun not for pure efficiency and there's nothing wrong with that, hence why I didn't use BS leveling to 30. I wanted a challenge. I'm saying that if people make the conscious effort, commando is easily on par with the other two.

Ergo, its a people problem or choice not a class problem.

I of course realize the difference, but when the facts are so overwhelming, that is when I start to question it. It isn't about one player or several players, it is about practically all players. Everyone should play each class "for fun". That is why it's a game. What you are pointing out is that the fun way to play a commando is a bad way statistically. So if you want to come close to scoring like the other classes, you have to play in a way that is less fun.
Don't you think that is a problem?
I play each class the way I have fun. I bet most people do. And most people do better with their other classes.
Even the people who are snipers score slower btw. So the whole argument isn't really that good to me. So you have better KDR as a sniper. Well, if you play that way, you lose more and btw, don't have as much fun.
Can't I have my cake and eat it too? I can with the gunner and soldier.

BTW, the best commando I've ever faced is Bliss.Paper. He used pistols (not rifles) and kicked the crap out of everyone doing it. He is certainly an exception. And yes, I know who he really is.

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28-03-2011, 09:25 PM | Post: #40
DorianGray 
(28-03-2011 09:14 PM)Erreip199 Wrote:  All Classes need changes
I think gunners and soldiers are pretty balanced at the moment. I think a ton of soldiers > a ton of gunners due to blasting strike and the soldiers ability to do massive damage at mid/long with long range pistols + BB5, but in general I find these 2 classes very balanced.

Commandos however, snipers are just plain ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. In a game where fights take several seconds, 2 shotting someone in less than a second or 2 seconds is just absolutely ridiculous. However, I find duel long range pistoling balanced with the other classes (enough time to react to them, but still very heavy damage so good weapon choice)

Knifing and close range fighting in general for a commando however is underpowered because of blasting strike and keg (kegs slow should not effect those wielding a knife or short pistol and blasting strike does ridiculous damage for something already really good for putting them in the soldier's range).
(This post was last modified: 28-03-2011 09:28 PM by DorianGray.)
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