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28-03-2011, 04:01 AM | Post: #1
JohnnyEnglish 
I have now read several topics on why commandos are underpowered/overpowered/ in need of some form of change. And I've seen good points on both sides of that spectrum.

Here's my reasoning why it doesn't need to be buffed as is suggested, most notably here.

1) It is currently (barring any geographical oddities that cause one hit kills) the only class that can 2-3 hit kill anything. That is not to be sneezed at.

2) It is often said that commandos are at the bottom of the score board in almost all statistics. That's usually because commandos are stats obsessed and camp heavy and not inclined to get their hands dirty as it were. Plenty of commandos are fine with losing more games if their KDR remains relatively intact.

3) That said, it usually comes down to a tradeoff. Do you want more self preservation skills(stealth, elixir) or do you want a scoring ability(MT or PB for its DoT effect)?

4) There aren't any good suggestions IMHO that could buff the supposed "deficiencies" of the commando. The real problem, if it is a problem, is the people who play the class. Some are content with mediocre scoring if their team is victorious. Others aren't. Again its a tradeoff.

5) The commando wasn't designed to be front-line material(less health than other classes) but that doesn't mean it can't be played like one. As an example, I would offer my royal commando, [I]mperfect. I was level 24 two weeks. I am now level 28. Playing with dual LR pistols, (or in my case and combination of short, long and medium), and and a combination of mark target, elixir, and troop traps garnered me the score you see there in that short a time space.

6) We can talk about nerfing Mark Target all we want but its a team ability and limiting its "cone" would be akin to saying hero shield only works if you're looking at the people you're giving it to. Or combat medicine.

Commandos are more than capable of holding their own on the battlefield, and at this point I believe it is safe to say that the classes are the most balanced they have been, or probably will be at this point. The only change I would submit as a possibility is an effect for PB that would siphon off a small portion of health and give it to the commando. (Naturally a greater percentage with a higher level of PB)

Before you dismiss my comments, I have one 30 commando already. I'll have another within probably two weeks. I've tried all playstyles and classes( I have a 30 of each, 2 30 gunners).

TL;DR The commando shouldn't be buffed excepting the provision made at the end.

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28-03-2011, 04:06 AM | Post: #2
DorianGray 
I'm for commandos capping flags faster and possibly a PB buff, but thats it. Nothing more.
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28-03-2011, 04:11 AM | Post: #3
geranedlanhker 
i just didn't care to read it so i don't know what it is about SmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmile
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28-03-2011, 04:13 AM | Post: #4
[Det]Holmes 
i Personally find this topic quite enlightening. I think the pb/vampiric buff would be interesting and fun.

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28-03-2011, 05:27 AM | Post: #5
MlaysianHedgehog 
i think the topics right......

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28-03-2011, 05:30 AM | Post: #6
borgishmorg 
Indeed. Leave our commandos "as is".
P.S. I think a commando who has been playing this game long enough to know commando mechanics can easily be at the top of the scoreboard, providing there is no noob-basher gunners around.

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(This post was last modified: 28-03-2011 05:37 AM by borgishmorg.)
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28-03-2011, 05:42 AM | Post: #7
22ezarc 
(28-03-2011 04:06 AM)DorianGray Wrote:  I'm for commandos capping flags faster and possibly a PB buff, but thats it. Nothing more.

word

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28-03-2011, 06:33 AM | Post: #8
WickedImage 
(28-03-2011 04:01 AM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  I have now read several topics on why commandos are underpowered/overpowered/ in need of some form of change. And I've seen good points on both sides of that spectrum.

Here's my reasoning why it doesn't need to be buffed as is suggested, most notably here.

1) It is currently (barring any geographical oddities that cause one hit kills) the only class that can 2-3 hit kill anything. That is not to be sneezed at.

2) It is often said that commandos are at the bottom of the score board in almost all statistics. That's usually because commandos are stats obsessed and camp heavy and not inclined to get their hands dirty as it were. Plenty of commandos are fine with losing more games if their KDR remains relatively intact.

3) That said, it usually comes down to a tradeoff. Do you want more self preservation skills(stealth, elixir) or do you want a scoring ability(MT or PB for its DoT effect)?

4) There aren't any good suggestions IMHO that could buff the supposed "deficiencies" of the commando. The real problem, if it is a problem, is the people who play the class. Some are content with mediocre scoring if their team is victorious. Others aren't. Again its a tradeoff.

5) The commando wasn't designed to be front-line material(less health than other classes) but that doesn't mean it can't be played like one. As an example, I would offer my royal commando, [I]mperfect. I was level 24 two weeks. I am now level 28. Playing with dual LR pistols, (or in my case and combination of short, long and medium), and and a combination of mark target, elixir, and troop traps garnered me the score you see there in that short a time space.

6) We can talk about nerfing Mark Target all we want but its a team ability and limiting its "cone" would be akin to saying hero shield only works if you're looking at the people you're giving it to. Or combat medicine.

Commandos are more than capable of holding their own on the battlefield, and at this point I believe it is safe to say that the classes are the most balanced they have been, or probably will be at this point. The only change I would submit as a possibility is an effect for PB that would siphon off a small portion of health and give it to the commando. (Naturally a greater percentage with a higher level of PB)

Before you dismiss my comments, I have one 30 commando already. I'll have another within probably two weeks. I've tried all playstyles and classes( I have a 30 of each, 2 30 gunners).

TL;DR The commando shouldn't be buffed excepting the provision made at the end.


1) It is currently the class that can't 1 shot someone with blasting strike, doesn't fire 500 rounds per minute, have its primary offensive weapon eliminated beyond a couple feet away, have its primary defensive weapon bypassed if they are sneezed at.

2) It is often said that commandos are at the bottom of the score board in almost all statistics. It's because, statistically speaking, they are.
Commandos are not stat obsessed. If they are, it's because they have to work harder for those stats. Camp heavy play is the result as they are not inclined to get their hands dirty, since knifing will almost certainly get them killed, as it were. Plenty of commandos are not fine with the current state of commandos.

3) That said, it usually comes down to a trade off. Snipe from afar and live reasonably longer or knife people in spite of knowing you have a much better chance of dieing than you do of living? Basically, pigeon holing you into not using the knife as a play style unless you don't mind the huge disadvantage a knifer has at higher levels.

4) The "deficiencies" of the commando can be balanced by nerfing BS and Keg vs commandos. The real problem is an imbalance in the result of successfully using those powers vs commandos. Your knife is rendered useless until you are dead, or you leave(if you can leave).

5) Your example is not necessarily typical of someone who uses a knife. While every other classes primary weapons get better with levels, the knife, indirectly, gets worse. This relegates commandos to snipe/pistol combos only, for many players.

6) Commando is clearly the weakest class regardless of MT.

Your PB idea is interesting but I'd rather have PB do something to hamper the foes abilities. Maybe halve their speed and other powers effectiveness. So BS doesn't one shot you into a wall. Or so Leg it doesn't leave you in the dust and get you filled with super cheeser bullets.
I'm also open to upping the dmg of PB.....or conversely making PB a "constant" and lowering the per tier damage of it.
I don't know if the commando needs a buff, but i "do" know of some powers that could use a debuff vs commandos.

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28-03-2011, 06:50 AM | Post: #9
HC.Gracious 
I blame the bandages...
Too many mando's afraid to die, and the bandages are too expesive.

Only skill will draw the full picture of the mando.
And it it true, people shouldn't whine about it is UP since you can 2-3 shots kill someone.

(This post was last modified: 28-03-2011 06:55 AM by HC.Gracious.)
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28-03-2011, 06:50 AM | Post: #10
DorianGray 
If a leg it gunner gets away from you, thats your own damn fault for not staying on him. I can understand someones frustrations with kegs and blasting strikes because they generally are hard counters to knifing to the point that knifing becomes useless, but don't complain about leg it. You run just as quickly as a leg it gunner, no reason to QQ over that.

I'm a gunner (and 2 pistol commando actually) mostly usually and in all honesty I'm fine with nerfing the slow on keg so it doesn't slow them to a snail's speed...though I feel it's one of the few ways to catch a sniper as a gunner, otherwise they just elixer away, cloak and come back to put holes in me a mile away. Sometimes I wish snipers and knifers/pistolers were 2 different classes because it's hard to balance them when ones so much more powerful than the other >.>

Anyone that complains snipers are underpowered can suck a long one though.. The ability to 2 shot someone in a game where most fights take several seconds is just ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. At least knifers have to get close to do their damage, while a sniper can do it pretty much any range with a fast rifle and slow rifle screws you in 1 headshot.

Basically, nerf blasting strikes DAMAGE. It constantly hits for 50ish on me and above even when I jump correctly with the blasting strike. Jumping with the blasting and turning off your speed ability is the only way to avoid heavy damage from blasting and even when doing this taking damage happens a lot. Blasting strike is already good enough blasting people away in their damage range, no reason it should do massive damage.
(This post was last modified: 28-03-2011 07:03 AM by DorianGray.)
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28-03-2011, 06:58 AM | Post: #11
JohnnyEnglish 
(28-03-2011 06:33 AM)WickedImage Wrote:  1) It is currently the class that can't 1 shot someone with blasting strike, doesn't fire 500 rounds per minute, have its primary offensive weapon eliminated beyond a couple feet away, have its primary defensive weapon bypassed if they are sneezed at.

2) It is often said that commandos are at the bottom of the score board in almost all statistics. It's because, statistically speaking, they are.
Commandos are not stat obsessed. If they are, it's because they have to work harder for those stats. Camp heavy play is the result as they are not inclined to get their hands dirty, since knifing will almost certainly get them killed, as it were. Plenty of commandos are not fine with the current state of commandos.

3) That said, it usually comes down to a trade off. Snipe from afar and live reasonably longer or knife people in spite of knowing you have a much better chance of dieing than you do of living? Basically, pigeon holing you into not using the knife as a play style unless you don't mind the huge disadvantage a knifer has at higher levels.

4) The "deficiencies" of the commando can be balanced by nerfing BS and Keg vs commandos. The real problem is an imbalance in the result of successfully using those powers vs commandos. Your knife is rendered useless until you are dead, or you leave(if you can leave).

5) Your example is not necessarily typical of someone who uses a knife. While every other classes primary weapons get better with levels, the knife, indirectly, gets worse. This relegates commandos to snipe/pistol combos only, for many players.

6) Commando is clearly the weakest class regardless of MT.

Your PB idea is interesting but I'd rather have PB do something to hamper the foes abilities. Maybe halve their speed and other powers effectiveness. So BS doesn't one shot you into a wall. Or so Leg it doesn't leave you in the dust and get you filled with super cheeser bullets.
I'm also open to upping the dmg of PB.....or conversely making PB a "constant" and lowering the per tier damage of it.
I don't know if the commando needs a buff, but i "do" know of some powers that could use a debuff vs commandos.
First of all, there are no primary offensive weapons. You decide your primary, commandos have three routes each of them fulfilling in its own right, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.

Blasting one hit kills are as I stated before, either randomized or off of geographical features.

Knives do not lose their effectiveness at higher levels. As the competition improves so must one's tactics.

Legit and Elixir have the same speed(It's been tested), use that to your advantage.

I used the term "deficiencies" in quotes because I don't believe there are any.

I believe you may have missed the point, which is that there are no weak classes only weak players.

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28-03-2011, 07:24 AM | Post: #12
[Z].eRaser 
(28-03-2011 05:30 AM)borgishmorg Wrote:  Indeed. Leave our commandos "as is".
P.S. I think a commando who has been playing this game long enough to know commando mechanics can easily be at the top of the scoreboard, providing there is no noob-basher gunners around.

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28-03-2011, 08:32 AM | Post: #13
StupidusX 
100% agree with OP inb4flamewar

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28-03-2011, 09:17 AM | Post: #14
PlantainMan 
Agreed. The "definciencies" of the mando are actually player deficiencies. Playing aggressively, even with rifle and pistol, puts me at the top of the scoreboard in almost every game I play - there's nothing wrong with the scoring capabilities of the mando itself.

I think the reason people think it's underpowered is because it's the most extreme class in terms of variation. Depending on the circumstances (map, players, classes present, etc...), the mando can either be the best class for a certain game or the worst. Gunners and soldiers have a much tighter, much more predictable stability when it comes to scoring/killing. The mando class is also more extreme in ability required to play it well. You either practice and get good or you will suck. It's much easier to achieve decency with the soldier and gunner without too much practice or skill.

Basically, the commando class is rewarding if played well/in good circumstances and not so much if played without strategy or skill. Most people fall into the 2nd category, and therefore think it's underpowered, when actually it's perfectly balanced (just balanced between two more extreme endpoints than the soldier/gunner).

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28-03-2011, 10:34 AM | Post: #15
Nyetek 
Its difficult to avoid sounding patronising when making this point, but I find that the people who tend to think commandos (snipers, specifically) are UP tend to be either (a) relatively inexperienced players with mid-level mando characters (e.g. level 18 or so) or (b) players who play pretty much exclusively with the mando class. Not saying that ALL people arguing for a buff fall into these categories, but in my experience most do. Of course we have all been there and everyone has the right to their opinion, but when I was level 18 I had plenty of misconceptions about the game (e.g. gunners are OP, BB is the best soldier ability, dual SMG the best soldier build, etc)

Most experienced players will tell you that, if you're talking level-30, highly-skilled players in a casual (not scrim or clans) situation, snipers tend to rule - maybe not in terms of score or ensuring victory, but their KDR will be second to none. Weasel words yes, but its the truth - I havent talked to a single person with a level 30 of each class that doesnt say that snipers rule.

The problem is that most players dont make it to level 30 and dont play long enough to master the mando class (which does tend to take longer, since it requires a different skill set to the standard strafe-and-shoot that most gamers are familiar with). So they think that mandos (snipers) are UP and thus there is an incentive for EA, in catering for this majority, to buff mandos and/or nerf other classes. Which would be a massive shame, since it is pretty close to balanced as it is (well snipers are a bit OP, but this is offset by the fact that few have the skill to take advantage of it).
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28-03-2011, 12:00 PM | Post: #16
MadBernieSkills 
(28-03-2011 04:01 AM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  I have now read several topics on why commandos are underpowered/overpowered/ in need of some form of change. And I've seen good points on both sides of that spectrum.

Here's my reasoning why it doesn't need to be buffed as is suggested, most notably here.

1) It is currently (barring any geographical oddities that cause one hit kills) the only class that can 2-3 hit kill anything. That is not to be sneezed at.

Of course, blasting strike can 1-hit kill anything. I've been rocket-keg 1-hit killed too. So both of the other classes have a 1-hit kill ability and the commando doesn't.
Anyway, I'm sure you are familiar with the term "glass cannon" right? I mean, they are supposed to kill fast.

(28-03-2011 04:01 AM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  2) It is often said that commandos are at the bottom of the score board in almost all statistics. That's usually because commandos are stats obsessed and camp heavy and not inclined to get their hands dirty as it were. Plenty of commandos are fine with losing more games if their KDR remains relatively intact.

They are only at the bottom of two categories. Win/Loss Ratio and Score/Time. Anyone other argument is wrong. They are not at the bottom anywhere else. This is not my opinion but fact.
The reason you have for them being weaker is an opinion. I personally play as a "get your hands dirty" commando. I do well. Guess what? I do better on my other classes in those two categories. My playstyle is not helping in those areas I mentioned.

(28-03-2011 04:01 AM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  3) That said, it usually comes down to a tradeoff. Do you want more self preservation skills(stealth, elixir) or do you want a scoring ability(MT or PB for its DoT effect)?

But the other classes don't need a tradeoff. Commandos do.

(28-03-2011 04:01 AM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  4) There aren't any good suggestions IMHO that could buff the supposed "deficiencies" of the commando. The real problem, if it is a problem, is the people who play the class. Some are content with mediocre scoring if their team is victorious. Others aren't. Again its a tradeoff.

It is those same people who play the commando that play the gunner/soldier. How many people don't have at least one of each? Not many. They are the same ones who do better as other classes. I can count on one hand how many people score faster and win more as a commando than their other classes. I'm not comparing player x's commando vs. player y's soldier. I'm comparing player x's commando vs. player x's soldier.
The real problem, and there is a problem, is that the design of the class forces commandos to make a tradeoff and not the other classes. I've looked at heroes with 1400+ ELOs and KDRs of 3+ and compared them with gunners/soldiers with the same stats. Commandos still did worse in Score/Time and WLR. So even excellent commandos who know what they are doing, don't do it as well as the other classes.

(28-03-2011 04:01 AM)JohnnyEnglish Wrote:  Before you dismiss my comments, I have one 30 commando already. I'll have another within probably two weeks. I've tried all playstyles and classes( I have a 30 of each, 2 30 gunners).
I'm not dismissing anything you said. What I will do is present you with facts about your heroes.
Here are the score/hour stats for your level 25+ commandos: 11,859 and 14160.
Here are the score/hour stats for your level 25+ soldier: 15,552
Here are the score/hour stats for your level 25+ gunners: 16,726 and 18,339.

Here are your WLR for your level 25+ commandos: 2.99 and 2.72
Here are your WLR for your level 25+ soldier: 3.15
Here are your WLR for your level 25+ gunners: 3.09 and 2.16

Other than your royal gunner having a worse WLR than your commandos, everything else falls into exactly what I'm saying. So it's true for you too.

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28-03-2011, 03:33 PM | Post: #17
Nyetek 
Perhaps, BernieSkills, a gunner with an ELO of 1400 and a KDR of 3 is actually a better player than a commando (sniper at least) with the same stats. At least that would be the case if the mando (sniper) has a natural advantage in killing/avoiding deaths to make up for their disadvantage in scoring etc. Just like a sniper who scores 3000 in a game will tend to be more skilled than a soldier with the same score.

Much is made of the one-hit-kill thing, but I dont think its all that significant a disadvantage. A soldier's BS is just as likely to do zero damage as it is to be a one-hit kill. And in fact I have been one-hit killed by a mando before - when he put several troop traps and blasted me into a ceiling. Sure, its rare, but so is any one-hit kill.

What is more significant, in my view, is that a sniper, with 5PS and either slow rifle or fast rifle, can kill you consistently (unlike BS etc) around a second at just about any distance - so fast that a soldier doesnt even have time to activate combat medicine (usually, with a good sniper, you have time to press it, but you die before it activates).

You're a good player, consider your own characters. OK, for you, the KDR/ELO of your mando is comparable to your soldier and your gunner. But you mainly use knife and pistol on your mando. You've only used the slow rifle for 6 hours - and yet you have a weapon-specific KDR of over 10 with it, much better than any other weapon on any of your characters. Is it much of a stretch to suggest that if you actually used the rifle as much as you do the pistol, that the KDR and ELO of your mando would improve above and beyond your other characters?

Same with me: I am a decent soldier and an awful sniper, yet my weapon-specific KDR with the slow rifle is higher than any other weapon, soldier or otherwise. Usually I miss with the damn thing, but when I hit the two/three headshots in a row it doesnt matter how good the other player is, they simply dont have time to respond. Personally I find sniping to be boring, but Im convinced that if I played my sniper as much as I did my soldier, he would have a better KDR than the soldier.

Your statistics say that mandos are weak scorers and winners, and average with everything else. But I am suggesting that the stats dont capture mandos' (snipers) killing potential because most people dont achieve that potential. It takes a lot of time to master sniping, and most casual players probably dont even find it fun enough to put in that much effort. If you could limit the sample size to level 30 snipers, or snipers who have played for +200 hours, I think you'd find that they have a higher average KDR and ELO than level 30/+200h soldiers, gunners and knifers.

To sum up: I couldnt actually care less if mandos got a score buff or not, but I think you underestimate the advantages they already have in other areas.
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28-03-2011, 03:49 PM | Post: #18
luckyass02 
1) It is currently (barring any geographical oddities that cause one hit kills) the only class that can 2-3 hit kill anything. That is not to be sneezed at. = NOT true. Ever heard of a SR shotgun? On the other hand you are absolutely right that we (Angel) don't need a buffTongue

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28-03-2011, 04:07 PM | Post: #19
xXsintwinsXx 
I agree with OP other than that knifing is impossible against anyone half decent. Against a soldier they just use BS, BB and you're done for. Gunners use leg it and kill you within seconds, the only way you could beat them is if you get a few stabs in their back before they notice. Which never occurs when against someone with half a brain.
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28-03-2011, 04:09 PM | Post: #20
2Yt67W3e 
Every class can 1 hit kill. I have done it. TT on the perfect setting will 1 hit kill anyone, same with BS and Kegzooka. This is the way things work. Bernie says something, you shut it and accept it. He has the site, stats, data and facts. He can be wrong occasionally, altho i have never seen him be wrong. At least not while its BFH related, and after he got the site up.

People rage when gunner gets a 1 hit kill, people cry when soldiers 1 hit kill them. I never seen a reaction exept "i should have watched where i was going" when 1 hit killed with a mando, exept crit knife, then its always "WTF NOOOOOOOB! *insert many different rage related words here*"

It is quite funny.... Am i getting side-tracked again? I think i am.

On a topic that is 100% un-related to this, i like pie.

On topic. I halfway agree with you. Easy-aim snipers with 5PS is rediculus. what is it? 3 or 4 shots a second, while the slow is around 2 shots a second? Not to mention a average hit of 46 with fast, and 68 with slow. So after 5 seconds (with a infinet clip) the fast would have hit (lets go with 4 shots a second for fast). The fast would have done 920, while the slow would have done 680.

Should it be headshots, it could be different, with the fast hitting for around 57, and the slow hitting for 79.
Fast dmg done in 5 seconds with a infinet clip would be 1140
Slow dmg done in 5 seconds with a infinet clip would be 790.

Thats why i dont get why people complain about the slow rifle. there is a 350 damage difference. Thats either 4 commandos dead, 3 soilders dead, or 2 gunners dead.

Thats crazy.

I will admit, i used a calculator. Hey its early morning and i just woke up. Im tired, leave me alone! D:

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